The world of VR is not actually any less real than the "real world"

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Guest

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Imagine a perfect virtual reality device. You hook yourself up to the machine- maybe there's a helmet to interface with your brain, some cords to attach to your body, and some other science-fictiony stuff to get it working. You turn it on. Immediately you find yourself in a another world: whatever world you want. The problems you had in your old world are gone. You can do anything.

To me, this sounds close to paradise, but many seem to see it differently. Someone not as enthused as me might say: "yeah, it'd be cool, but it wouldn't be real." Wait a minute. Does it matter whether or not it's real? What does it mean for something to real? The more I think about it, the less I understand the common distinction made between "real" and "unreal".

When people wonder whether something is or isn't "real", they are asking whether or not their thought of that thing is something that corresponds to something that "exists out there", or whether it only exists their mind. If something is real, that means your thought corresponds to the right thing. If something is unreal, either your thoughts correspond to the wrong thing, or nothing.

In the real world, the environment you interact with is matter interacting in complex ways. In a virtual world, the environment you interact with is also matter interacting in complex ways. The difference between the two situations is how the matter relates to the creation of your world. If you compare a real and virtual cup of coffee, one is made of electric currents, transistors, memory cells, and so on, and the other is made of ceramic and paint; but both are ultimately made of the same type of matter everything else is made of. Both virtual and real processes can result in the creation of the same category of thing: in this case, coffee cups. In both situations, there are coherent rules which relate the worldmatter to your perception of the world, and as you interact with the world, you follow these rules in a logical way.

So if both worlds correspond to stuff that actually exists, and if that's how we define real, both situations seem to be equally real.

If realistic VR becomes available to me in my lifetime, I'm going to gigacope and fulfill my own isekai fantasies.
 
Eren

Eren

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Both virtual and real processes can result in the creation of the same category of thing: in this case, coffee cups. In both situations, there are coherent rules which relate the worldmatter to your perception of the world, and as you interact with the world, you follow these rules in a logical way.

So if both worlds correspond to stuff that actually exists, and if that's how we define real, both situations seem to be equally real.
I think this is the crux of your argument. I would say that it's flawed as even though you can't tell the difference everybody else can. You could make the egocentric argument that your consciousness is the only reality (or the only reality that matters anyway) and I can't debunk that but obviously as a separate individual I disagree with it.
 
G

Guest

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I think this is the crux of your argument. I would say that it's flawed as even though you can't tell the difference everybody else can. You could make the egocentric argument that your consciousness is the only reality (or the only reality that matters anyway) and I can't debunk that but obviously as a separate individual I disagree with it.
Well, it's not that there's no difference between the two coffee cups, it's that both of them are "real" coffee cups. Imagine instead of being hooked up to the VR machine, you were an AI who had spent its entire life living in the same virtual world. To it, that world would be the "real" world, and it would justify its reality in the same way we would justify the reality of our world, by appealing to the correspondence of its experience of reality to the properties of what it exists in. I think that's the same kind of situation, both are "real". I'm not saying people won't claim it's "not real", they definitely will, I'm questioning that distinction.
 
Eren

Eren

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Well, it's not that there's no difference between the two coffee cups, it's that both of them are "real" coffee cups. Imagine instead of being hooked up to the VR machine, you were an AI who had spent its entire life living in the same virtual world. To it, that world would be the "real" world, and it would justify its reality in the same way we would justify the reality of our world, by appealing to the correspondence of its experience of reality to the properties of what it exists in. I think that's the same kind of situation, both are "real". I'm not saying people won't claim it's "not real", they definitely will, I'm questioning that distinction.
Okay, I see. You're challenging the definition of what is real & yes both existences are real. I guess it's more about which existence is meaningful.
 
Eren

Eren

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Nov 28, 2020
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The whole thought experiment is basically the matrix & whether you want to take the blue pill or the red pill.
 
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Guest

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Offtopic, but are dreams real?
Are lucid dreams more real than normal dreams?
:feelsstudy: I guess? The experience is just as real. The difference between a normal dream and a lucid dream is that you can self-monitor in a lucid dream, so I wouldn't say that lucid dreams are more real, just that you're more aware.
 
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KingofLDAR

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Nov 27, 2020
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Offtopic, but are dreams real?



Are lucid dreams more real than normal dreams?


they are "real" in that you experience them. but the events in your dream do not have any long term consequences in the same way that those events would have on your life if you were not dreaming. for example, if you crash your car in a dream, you likely wake up, and no consequences. yet if you crash your car when awake, you have to deal with insurance, bills, car repairs or replacement, injuries, etc.
 
A

Abi No

Hi
Nov 26, 2020
781
Offtopic, but are dreams real?



Are lucid dreams more real than normal dreams?


Dreams could be considered real if they were permanent or at least long lasting, because at that point, it's effects are real to you, at least mentally
 
Unemployed

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they are "real" in that you experience them. but the events in your dream do not have any long term consequences in the same way that those events would have on your life if you were not dreaming. for example, if you crash your car in a dream, you likely wake up, and no consequences. yet if you crash your car when awake, you have to deal with insurance, bills, car repairs or replacement, injuries, etc.
IMO dreams have a huge impact to the "real world".

For example, the structure of DNA, the periodical table, and the sowing machine are just some of the ideas and discoveries that originate from dreams.

A nightmare can make you wake up early. Some nightmares are so disgusting that they can scar or haunt people for the rest of their lives.

We can experience things that will affect our decisions, worldviews etc. in dreams.
 
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jaded jabble

jaded jabble

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Nov 30, 2020
3,671
Imagine a perfect virtual reality device. You hook yourself up to the machine- maybe there's a helmet to interface with your brain, some cords to attach to your body, and some other science-fictiony stuff to get it working. You turn it on. Immediately you find yourself in a another world: whatever world you want. The problems you had in your old world are gone. You can do anything.

To me, this sounds close to paradise, but many seem to see it differently. Someone not as enthused as me might say: "yeah, it'd be cool, but it wouldn't be real." Wait a minute. Does it matter whether or not it's real? What does it mean for something to real? The more I think about it, the less I understand the common distinction made between "real" and "unreal".

When people wonder whether something is or isn't "real", they are asking whether or not their thought of that thing is something that corresponds to something that "exists out there", or whether it only exists their mind. If something is real, that means your thought corresponds to the right thing. If something is unreal, either your thoughts correspond to the wrong thing, or nothing.

In the real world, the environment you interact with is matter interacting in complex ways. In a virtual world, the environment you interact with is also matter interacting in complex ways. The difference between the two situations is how the matter relates to the creation of your world. If you compare a real and virtual cup of coffee, one is made of electric currents, transistors, memory cells, and so on, and the other is made of ceramic and paint; but both are ultimately made of the same type of matter everything else is made of. Both virtual and real processes can result in the creation of the same category of thing: in this case, coffee cups. In both situations, there are coherent rules which relate the worldmatter to your perception of the world, and as you interact with the world, you follow these rules in a logical way.

So if both worlds correspond to stuff that actually exists, and if that's how we define real, both situations seem to be equally real.

If realistic VR becomes available to me in my lifetime, I'm going to gigacope and fulfill my own isekai fantasies.
The sad thing is I’ll never be able to afford it in my lifestyle so i cant fulfill my fantasies as a conqueror
 
Unemployed

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IMO dreams have a huge impact to the "real world".

For example, the structure of DNA, the periodical table, and the sowing machine are just some of the ideas and discoveries that originate from dreams.

A nightmare can make you wake up early. Some nightmares are so disgusting that they can scar or haunt people for the rest of their lives.

We can experience things that will affect our decisions, worldviews etc. in dreams.
The periodic table
 
Alzheimer

Alzheimer

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Pseudo philosophical crap
 
Synthesis

Synthesis

foolish child
Nov 26, 2020
46
I'd also add that what we experience in everyday life is not the real world per se, but rather a representation of it. Cats, for instance, perceive a smaller range of colors than humans do, so their representation of the world differs from ours. And it wouldn't be correct to say that our brains model the world more 'accurately' than cats do, since there's no criteria through which we may determine which representation is the more accurate one. As Kant observed centuries ago, the thing-in-itself will always remain a mystery to us. Once you understand that both the 'real' and the virtual are mere appearances, the distinction between the two becomes all the more blurred.
 
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KingofLDAR

NEET
Nov 27, 2020
68
IMO dreams have a huge impact to the "real world".

For example, the structure of DNA, the periodical table, and the sowing machine are just some of the ideas and discoveries that originate from dreams.

A nightmare can make you wake up early. Some nightmares are so disgusting that they can scar or haunt people for the rest of their lives.

We can experience things that will affect our decisions, worldviews etc. in dreams.
nightmares that haunt people for the rest of their lives? seems rare, never heard that before

waking up early does suck but not that much of a setback. you can always try to go back to sleep and get some rest.

and I'm not really sure if dreams have affected my worldview that much. i suppose subconciously they might have had somewhat of an effect.

but still going back to my point a car crash in a dream is way less impactful than a car crash when you are awake.
 
Unemployed

Unemployed

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nightmares that haunt people for the rest of their lives? seems rare, never heard that before

waking up early does suck but not that much of a setback. you can always try to go back to sleep and get some rest.

and I'm not really sure if dreams have affected my worldview that much. i suppose subconciously they might have had somewhat of an effect.

but still going back to my point a car crash in a dream is way less impactful than a car crash when you are awake.
But as I said earlier, they do change the way we think. They do affect the real world physically. Dreams give us new ideas and can make us see things like never before. So, IMHO it is real. But in the dream world you're the only person to truly exist.
 
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K

KingofLDAR

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Nov 27, 2020
68
But as I said earlier, they do change the way we think. They do affect the real world physically. Dreams give us new ideas and can make us see things like never before. So, IMHO it is real. But in the dream world you're the only person to truly exist.
yeah i think that's the proper way to describe it. makes sense
 
『 』

『 』

Amor Fati
Dec 13, 2020
4,230
Imagine a perfect virtual reality device. You hook yourself up to the machine- maybe there's a helmet to interface with your brain, some cords to attach to your body, and some other science-fictiony stuff to get it working. You turn it on. Immediately you find yourself in a another world: whatever world you want. The problems you had in your old world are gone. You can do anything.

To me, this sounds close to paradise, but many seem to see it differently. Someone not as enthused as me might say: "yeah, it'd be cool, but it wouldn't be real." Wait a minute. Does it matter whether or not it's real? What does it mean for something to real? The more I think about it, the less I understand the common distinction made between "real" and "unreal".

When people wonder whether something is or isn't "real", they are asking whether or not their thought of that thing is something that corresponds to something that "exists out there", or whether it only exists their mind. If something is real, that means your thought corresponds to the right thing. If something is unreal, either your thoughts correspond to the wrong thing, or nothing.

In the real world, the environment you interact with is matter interacting in complex ways. In a virtual world, the environment you interact with is also matter interacting in complex ways. The difference between the two situations is how the matter relates to the creation of your world. If you compare a real and virtual cup of coffee, one is made of electric currents, transistors, memory cells, and so on, and the other is made of ceramic and paint; but both are ultimately made of the same type of matter everything else is made of. Both virtual and real processes can result in the creation of the same category of thing: in this case, coffee cups. In both situations, there are coherent rules which relate the worldmatter to your perception of the world, and as you interact with the world, you follow these rules in a logical way.

So if both worlds correspond to stuff that actually exists, and if that's how we define real, both situations seem to be equally real.

If realistic VR becomes available to me in my lifetime, I'm going to gigacope and fulfill my own isekai fantasies.
In reality......(Pun not intended)

What is reality?

We use our Nervous System and our sensory organs to map an image in our minds of what we call "Reality"

Every time we learn something new then we replace the assumptions already in our minds with something else

There are so many things that we can not sense, does this mean we are not experiencing real reality?

things like sound are just vibrations that take place within a space that has pressure and what we feel as objects are just electrical impulses that get sent to our brains

Everything takes place in the brain and is given information via our interactions with the environment with our body

If we assume reality is real then what we experience is a huge pixelated screen of that reality that is black and white displayed on an old CCTV

In the Final Analysis the only thing that we can be certain of is your own self as a thinking conscious entity

Us as Humans try to seek meaning above pleasure and all else, therefore do not run away from the unknown but pursue what is meaningful and is within your grasp so life is worth even living
 
FastBananaCEO

FastBananaCEO

NEEK
Nov 29, 2020
768
If it weren't for ((())) we'd be happy in this reality.
 
Panzer

Panzer

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Nov 26, 2020
74
Okay, I see. You're challenging the definition of what is real & yes both existences are real. I guess it's more about which existence is meaningful.
“Meaningful” being defined by whether it is shared with and approved by others or not.
 
Eren

Eren

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“Meaningful” being defined by whether it is shared with and approved by others or not.
so would you take the bluepill or redpill?
 
Panzer

Panzer

Panzerkampfwagen
Nov 26, 2020
74
so would you take the bluepill or redpill?

I would take the bluepill.

Using OP’s reasoning, I say nothing you experience is false, everything you experience is real by the fact that it is something that you’re experiencing.

If I can simulate something to perfection, it is no different. Like vegan meat, if the end result is exactly the same it’s not fake. If god spawned a human out of thin air, he wouldn’t be any less true.

It is not the process that matters but the end result.

If different processes yielded the exact same results, the results are still the exact same. (2+4) = (3+3)

If I can simulate my own reality, I would. Even if that reality is not enforced upon others. I do not need their approval to enjoy it.

I’ve woken up from good dreams, which caused “real”, lingering strong feelings that I never felt before. This to me is proof.
 
Alzheimer

Alzheimer

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Pseudo philosophical crap
WTF, why the hell did I post that. I actually 100% agree with OP now, did I change so much in so little time ? lol weird
 
gigacel123

gigacel123

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Dec 3, 2020
1,215
Current VR is gay. But when it gets advanced enough and you can live forever in your dream life then I'll be down for it.
 
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